Plate, Planet, People: Rethinking Food in a Changing Climate with Paul Newnham

In this episode of Real Zero, hosts Professor Hugh Montgomery and Dr. Daniel Grant are joined by Paul Newnham — global climate expert and head of the SDG2 Advocacy Hub, Chef’s Manifesto, and host of the Future Fork podcast. Together, they dive into the critical intersection of climate change and global food systems, exploring how rising temperatures, unpredictable weather, and resource scarcity are putting farmers — especially in less developed regions — on the knife-edge of survival.

The conversation highlights the paradox of our current food system: we overproduce and waste staggering amounts of food while many still go hungry. The discussion focuses on sustainable solutions, including the need for more efficient and economic food production, adopting more plant-based diets (without necessarily going fully vegan), and the benefits of eating locally produced food.

Tune in for an engaging and eye-opening discussion on how we can rethink our relationship with food to secure a healthier planet and future for everyone.

Transcript

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Hello and welcome back to the Real Zero podcast with me, Daniel Grant. And I'm Hugh Montgomery. So here on the Real Zero podcast, we're all about telling you the real issues with climate change, but also crucially, what you might be able to do about it. And we've got some pretty good guests along the way. It's been busy as usual. Of course, the news from climate gets worse. every time we've had the climate impact report for Australia, which actually will bring us relevant to our guests that came out yesterday and it looking terrifying. If I was living there, I spoke to a New Zealander today who is having to move their residence because of sea level rise and erosion. And on the positives I spoke with Bart's hospital yesterday in London where they were really very engaged in making a difference. So some bad news. Some good news. your week? Good. Yeah, my week's been good. But I've been in Spain actually for, I had a sports tournament over there and it's pretty hot, which is probably something we often talk about on this. It's just getting hotter and hotter every year. But at least they've got some nice cold cervezas. Why don't we introduce our guest Hugh? I believe you met him and you've been on his podcast before so Well, well actually Paul we may let you introduce yourself. So ladies and gentlemen, let me introduce Mr. Paul Newnham Thank you. Great to be with you guys on this conversation. And good to see you again, Hugh. Always a pleasure. I am the CEO at the SDG 2 advocacy hub. So we look after advocacy with private sector UN and civil society groups around the sustainable development goal 2 which is around hunger, nutrition, agriculture. As part of that, we also lead a network of chefs called the Chef's Manifesto, which has chefs connected to the sustainable development goals that are connected in 120 countries around the world, that advocate and drive forward change. And I have a podcast called Future Fork, which I've had the pleasure of having a great conversation with Hugh on, and we cover a whole range of things around The Fork that is coming where we have choices, but also the fork that is the food that we consume in the role that plays. Great. I'm going to ask my first question. Ask this to everybody. How long would you say in a range we've got if we don't take action, meaningful action to mitigate greenhouse gas emissions? How long do you think before society unravels significantly? How long do you think we've got? So I think my way of answering that, Hugh, is that, unfortunately, it's not one way for everyone. It's not one length of time for everyone. I would say there are parts of the world that have already started to unravel, and we see that in conflicts that have been ongoing and continue to grow. I would say other parts are being held together quite well through some pre planning, some chance and positioning. Some from, you know, other kinds of checks and balances which have been able to adapt and move quickly. But I would say for some parts of the world, the unraveling has already begun. We've got to act. when you say that some of the parts of the world are unraveling already what does that mean? So, I mean, when you think about our world, and we work across the world, so we do sort of come across many of the parts of the world which are in crisis. And we see all different types of crisis affecting us at the moment. We saw this with accelerated during covid, which was a crisis which hit the global world all at once and changed many things for us and exposed many fractures in society. But in climate, you see that through the increases in emergencies, the increases in climactic events. But when I say this is uneven, there are some parts of the world that are well set up to respond to certain challenges that hit us. But there's others that aren't. so we are hearing about, major crises, which are leading to mass migration that are leading to famine in some parts of the world. essentially we're seeing famine like conditions in many parts of the world. this is happening and being accelerated by climate in many different ways. Climate happening in those regions and forcing agricultural to fail. Climate happening in other parts of the world, which is also driving up cost. So driving up the cost of goods, and that often will have the heaviest impact on the furthest behind other parts of the world will substitute, subsidize, mitigate cost increases to try and placate and keep populations happy and voting in the right way. In other parts of the world, the resources are not there. And so it's either a reduction in quantity or a reduction in quality. And so talking to certain governments that's the stark choice they're facing is, do they buy lower quality ingredients to feed their population or do they buy less ingredients? And that's a very challenging space to be in because what that leads to is malnutrition impacts growing. That impacts into the next generation and impact productivity, which then also further, you know, makes things worse. And then it also leads to a lot of debt because countries are borrowing often to actually even just manage some of this. And that debt then is in some parts of the world, people are paying up to 60 percent of every dollar in taxes is going into debt repayments. That impacts governance. It impacts a whole range of different things. And so when I say it's a bit uneven in some parts of the world, climate at the moment means certain things aren't in season at certain times, or we have less of something. And so it costs more. But in other parts of the world, that means People are choosing on how often and what to feed their Children if at all. I guess it's just to pick up on a couple of those points, Paul, I mean, with this desertification and so forth, we know that 18 percent of the world's surface area currently occupied by humans will be uninhabitable in a couple of decades time, and that could be displacing 4 billion people on their own, so it is uneven and You know, some will cope better in the short term. I guess medium term, no one will. I guess today, since you're a big food expert, there are two things I'm guessing Dan will want to be covering. The first is really the contribution of food systems to driving climate change. So how we might be able to change what we eat. mitigate the drivers of climate change, but then we'll also need to discuss, I guess, the effect of climate change on food production, and then the downstream sort of economic and societal consequences. could we discuss briefly the contribution of food systems to greenhouse gas emissions? And I'll ask you Dan, because you're Dan, you're our resident non expert. So, Dan, give us a percentage. What do you think? Percentage of global greenhouse gas emissions that humans are responsible for, what percentage do you think comes from food and food systems, would you say? it's going to be more than I would have said a little while ago, but you see things about, cows production, this kind of stuff. I'm going to go with 15%. In fact, it could be more. Yeah, one in three litres of CO2 we emit or greenhouse gas equivalents come from food, production, manufacture, shipping, distribution, processing and refrigeration and so forth. Paul, can you talk us through that? I mean, it's a big number, right? Why is it such a big number? You'd have thought power stations, airplanes, Yeah, you know, why is it so big? so, I mean, there's a whole bunch of reasons for it. And so the fact that it's a third when you think about it globally around the world, there are so many elements to food, agriculture and land use that really do feed into this space. So, you know, when we think about a food system a little while ago, we couldn't feed the world. And then we solved that problem by producing now enough food to feed one and a half planets. So we actually overproduce food now. So we have a system which is actually very wasteful and quite inefficient. So that leads to this increasing in greenhouse gas emissions. And also one of the biggest I think one of the bigger challenges as well is loss of biodiversity. And so it's a massive driver of biodiversity loss. And I think this is really key. Now, when you think about food, a third of all food produced in the world goes to waste. We want enough food so that people don't go hungry. The challenge is the way that's distributed is not even. So we still have around the world just over 700 million people going to bed hungry every night. At the same time, we're throwing away a third of all food, so it's not a problem of supply. It's a problem of distribution. And when you look at the greenhouse gas emissions that come from that a third of that food is being produced, which those emissions are also being created, which could probably be saved. And so by thinking differently, by creating less So for me, this is really challenging. And then at the same time, you know, where we're also got all these hidden costs that come from the food system. So in the food system we're seeing about 12 trillion per year in hidden costs. And these are costs which are impacting health care systems, which I know, Hugh, you'll be very aware of and seeing on the front line. And this is connected to the fact that you know, you've got very unhealthy diets being consumed. So what we're producing is having an impact also on greenhouse gas emission, biodiversity loss and human health. And this is one of the big challenges I see. And so tied to that is also affordability and there's a whole range of other points in there, but over 3. 1 billion people can't afford a diverse nutritious diet. And that, in my view, is almost criminal because we, this should be achievable. Okay, so putting that in context for the people who are less familiar with this, the point I was making is that, firstly, we could save a third of the greenhouse gas emissions because we're overproducing and we need to get that right and also therefore save starving people. The issue of biodiversity loss is really extraordinary. Dan, you may not know that we currently graze cattle on a land surface area equivalent to that greater than the entire continent of Africa. That's just grazing cattle. We also chop down rainforests to plant soy to feed cattle and this monoculture of that in this case just cows and their feeding is destroying our ecosystems And we've lost 72 percent of the vertebrates on the planet since I was age eight. So there's a big piece there, isn't there, about diet biodiversity and overuse. Let's talk about the evil cow, shall we, because there's much talk, isn't there, everyone's saying we should be on a plant based diet. So I'm going to ask you, Dan, again how many kilograms of CO2 is released per kilogram of beef that's produced? I'm gonna underestimate, aren't I? So, you know what? I'm gonna go crazy and say 25 kilograms, and then I might have overestimated! No, you'd be wrong again. It's 60 kilograms of CO2. And 60 and that's litres of CO2 per kilogram. You can do your own maths, 14,000 litres of CO2 per kilogram of beef. Why is it so high, Paul? Why is a cow such, or a ruminant animal, such a producer of greenhouse gases equivalent? The majority of the easy answer to that is because of the inputs and then also of the gases that come as part of that diet. The challenges. depending on how you graze those animals and how you bring them up will have a very different output. So these things, this is where this, I find this a fascinating conversation because what often we get stuck in is these kinds of the cow or not the cow. And you get people arguing with you, the cow is part of the solution and the problem. I think the challenge is that we have a predominant agricultural view, which is built around growing grain to feed cattle, which then you get the outputs of the grain. So the growing and the clearing of that land and the grain and the transport and everything else, and then also the feed lot and the cow and it's in the process that it does. And so the carbon additions coming from both sides are actually quite significant. And so that really drives up the amounts. Whereas agriculture, the way cows are grazed in certain parts of the world you know, with cattle farmers in Kenya, for example, roaming over large distances or in parts of the world like Australia. It often is very different, and it can actually be a positive for actually helping to capture carbon through the system and the cycle. I think the numbers are where the problem is in this, and it comes down to the amount we're eating. The challenge is when we overindulge, when we rely on two or three things. In many parts of the world, animal proteins are seen as wealth, they're seen as preferred food for performance, and so they're actually produced in a way to bring down the cost so that they can be given en masse to more people and drive profit. The challenge with that is that our system has actually become inefficient. In order to create efficiencies on the selling side, so it's become inefficient for the climate inefficient, actually, from a nutritional perspective as well, because of the lack of diversity being built into the system. And so that's actually degrading land. It's having run off. It's having all these other impacts that are happening. And so, for me, this is why I think animals and need to be eaten less better quality. Or not at all, depending on where you are in the world. But I'm a big fan of not saying, even though I eat 98 percent plant based diet, I'm a big fan of not saying it has to be plant based because in parts of the world, egg can make the difference or a small bit of animal protein to malnutrition. It's a really good point, actually, here, because, you know, it puts people off to be too preachy. There are things which we must restrict. So I agree with you. I am a sinner. I occasionally eat meat. If it's served to me I'll eat it, I have moved largely away from ruminants because of course, cows and sheep belch a lot of methane and methane is 83 times as powerful greenhouse gas as is CO2. It's also bad for our health in many ways. Red meat. So I've moved to if I go to your house and you serve me red meat I'm not going to tell you where to stick it I will say thank you very much Paul and I'll eat it the other bit of course is dairy, which I too have tried to cut down on so again Dan the part of the issue here is not just the belching cows But when you take milk, you've got to flash heat it to 73 degrees And then flash cool it, force the temperature down, that's pasteurization. And then for the rest of its journey it's refrigerated, and refrigeration has a huge carbon footprint. So cheese, there you are, cheese doesn't have to be pasteurized necessarily. Here's another question, how many kilograms per kilogram of cheese? should be a lot less, right, because a cow you're chopping up into chunks of kilograms and cheese, you can make lots more out of one cow. So, it is less, It's not a lot less. It's gonna be a it's not a trap, but you've got to come up with a number. fine. If it's less, I'm gonna say 31 Okay, well it's actually 22 kilograms of CO2 for a kilogram. I'm getting You are getting better, but the point being, I think I agree with Paul, that we can, if we all try to do what we can it doesn't mean we have to be preachy and say, no, never, you must be a vegan. If you wish to be, I'd strongly encourage that, but I think we can indeed say, well, we will just try to minimize our meat consumption and try to make it a different sort of meat and cut down on the dairy, if we can. I was gonna, you're probably going where I was going to go. I mean, to me, I think the big principle I always have when it comes to food is diversifying our plate. And so, you know, there was the eat Lancet Diet, which came out, which looked at how do we maintain kind of 1. 5 degrees. I actually looked at it from a principle perspective and said, the principle here is that there's a set of foods that we should be eating more of, and there's other foods we should be eating less of. And it's not about how do you make a burger out of X amount of beef or what size it is. It's actually about how often should you be eating a burger or animal based products versus eating seeds and nuts, eating leafy greens, eating legumes and other ingredients. And so for me, the principle that I took away from that and actually radically changed my diet and my family's diet to look at diversity on the plate, and so it's also about swaps and substitutes and looking for ingredients regularly that are more nutritious, use less water and that are better for the environment. For whatever reason that is, we were looking at how do we increase them? And even just this last week, I was in Kigali with a number of chefs. They were cooking with sorghum. And I was talking to my partner and we said, we really need to source sorghum where we are and start looking at is there a sustainable supply chain where we live in Australia? They were making chocolate brownies out of sorghum, you know, like they were making treats, things that everyone, everyday people will eat, but utilizing sorghum as a substitute, which has a much higher nutrient density, lower water use. and is better for the soil. So simple things like that, to me, are really key. It's interesting you say this, Paul, because I used to try to eat more vegetables and just found it so boring because I'm not really a chef like you, so I don't want to spend a long time preparing. What changed my diet was a book called Eat and Run a guy called Scott Jurek, who was the world ultramarathon champion who won as a raw vegan. And the book is partly an autobiography and partly a journey, a dietary journey. And he was saying, look, if you're running 12, 000 calories off a day, you've got to get it all in. You need your essential amino acids. You need your essential fatty acids. You need enough protein. It's got to be quick to make and it's got to be delicious because you're going to look forward to it. And it's full of amazing things that you know all about, which I'd never heard of. Shelled hemp seeds. Raw yeast flakes. They sound weird things, but they're just fantastic. And, raw yeast flakes, Dan, I don't know, have you ever tried a raw yeast flake in your life? You know what? I have tried a raw yeast flake. you could get it in the organic shop near where I used to live. And I tried to impress my girlfriend at the time and throw in a bit of yeast, So it's a really great way, if you want that lovely cheesy flavor of getting it in there. So I think there are Things we don't, the point I'm trying to get to, I guess, Paul, is that we don't have to suffer to eat the sort of diverse diet you're talking about, do we? We can have delicious meals that are quick and cheap to prepare without, we don't have to sacrifice the joy of food, do we? For a healthy planetary diet. Yeah. Look, I think this is a fallacy that, you know, we get sucked into. And I think it's this idea of, you know, it's a lack of people make decisions based around cost convenience and taste essentially with their food and convenience has been something that has been used to create shelf stable foods, which are very bland and very sugar and salty filled. And so they've driven our diet in a particular way. And that's in some ways made us lazy. But what I think is that in order to act. Bring back food. We've got to look and lean into culture, tradition. We've got to lean into, creativity to really bring that to the forefront. And I see that in the younger generation actually really leaning in. I know my kids who are at college age are all doing meal prep for the whole week and they're thinking a lot more about now they're doing it to save money. They're doing it for economic reasons, but they're also doing it because they're not wanting to eat just kind of rubbish food. So they're actually going, we want to create the right kinds of nutritious food. And so they're getting in the kitchen and they're prepping together these like 28 meals And I find that fascinating at the moment because I think that's really key. You also see in that generation, people spending disposable income on going out and extending their exploring food. They want food experiences. They're even moving some away from, I don't know, in your part of the world, but I'm seeing, you know, moving away from even alcohol in some areas and spending money on alcohol into food experiences. And how do they pay for these food experiences? A friend of mine who's a behavioral researcher is like, how are these kids spending 200 bucks, 300 on food going out for dinner when they're at college? It makes no sense. Yet. They want the experience. They want the flavors, the taste, the and to see. And so I think there's this fascinating thing around culture and food. And I think the more we lean into that, the more we show these different cuisines and these different ingredients and lift them and elevate them, the more we can actually really improve our food system. And I think when I look at What needs to happen. That's the hope, I guess, is that if each of us just added a couple of other ingredients and substitute them in our diet, we actually really see a significant impact day to day on our on climate impacts and our human health impact. And of course, I mean, as you say, there are many reasons doing this. And you've mentioned the health one. So, I mean, the planetary one is straight forward. We've talked about the climate issue for people who care about things like rainforests, of course I won't put you on the spot with this one, Dan, but I'll tell you the number. 73 percent of tropical and subtropical deforestation is for agriculture. All right. And as Paul's pointed out, we overproduce by a third. We don't need to be chopping down rainforest. The other is a health reason. And it's really interesting is it, Dan, you're a doctor. New York City, as you know, has gone vegan by default on its menus. You can have a meat based meal when you're in hospital, but the first and the second are not going down the list. Start with plant based. It's been massively popular. It saved them money. There's a huge impact on carbon emissions beneficial for health. Why is this just not the standard, Dan, do you think? Why is our health service serving poisonous food when it could be serving plant based meals? I, well, I don't know Hugh and I, you know what? There is a video that I'll be making at some point about it, about the food that we serve in hospitals because it's been a bit of a bug bear of mine, and I think part of it's to do with contracts and money and, you know, they get certain menus in and everything's heated. But I've been on the ward and, you see that waste firsthand. You know, here's your microwave meal, but the guy doesn't want to eat that. It literally just wants beans on toast or something like that. Something really simple because after surgery, maybe you can't even eat that much anyway. And, you know, in the past we used to have chefs in the hospitals that used to cook things up, but not chef, the cooks for the wards, it's all gone. What do you think, Paul? I mean, again you, I should make clear to the public, you're not just a chef in your own right. You understand the whole business of cooking. So why do you think it is the hospitals and so forth are so wedded to the serving of meat as a core? What's stopping them moving to healthy, local, seasonal plant based food? Look, I think there's a couple of things that are going on in this. And I will say I'll finish up with an example where it has shifted and I think it's shifting fast. So, look, I think there's a lot around tradition and culture that's built in. And so there's supply chain systems. There's businesses that have operated in a particular way and people have particular tastes and they have particular expectations. And that is then pushed into the contracts which are signed and the business which is signed around that. And in those contracts, it's always been about how do we reduce costs? How do we make more efficiency? So, as you said, no, the cooks are gone. Now we're into this kind of different system, which is pre prepared meals on mass looking at, you know, forward purchasing and, you know, a whole range of different elements here. In that system, though it's built around trying to reduce costs, maintain contracts and competitiveness and in doing so, it's also based on old science around nutrition and the impact and the connection of food, you know, in many parts of the world, doctors have a week, maybe 2 to 3 days of nutrition training as part of their medicine training. five plus years. Now that is shifting because people are understanding the connection, the importance of prevention, not just treatment, the shifts and the impacts of NCDs and all of this kind of area. So for me, as that starts to happen, food is now being thought of in different ways. in the U. S. there's a big movement around food is medicine where insurance companies are prescribing food. That's then going to have major impacts also on hospitals and have impacts on contracting to see how food affects mood, how food affects recovery times, how food reduces risk and all of these kinds of things. We're seeing it already in trackables and wearables around exercise. We're going to see the same thing around food, and that will increasingly grow. So I think insurance and the money will actually shift this in hospitals as fast as any intention around improving climate. That being said, at the moment, we are doing a campaign which we just launched this last week with the city of New York, which is across basically a number of New York departments, including aged care and hospitals working with groups like Sodexo and other partners. to put beans on the menu, and this is tied to their climate. Race to zero and, you know, a whole range of other programs which they're running. But they're looking at how do they get beans, peas and lentils into dishes across their menus as a way of really driving forward change. And we've got chefs going into meet with some of these centers to talk in a culturally relevant way about the way to make that exciting and delicious. And I think these kinds of initiatives are really interesting because they do really up the ante. They up the ante sometimes from a climate perspective and environment where their shareholders and stakeholders looking to hit targets that have been set or from a flavor taste nutritional side, which also has a climate benefit. And I'm I kind of don't mind personally which way people get there. If it's Through getting to the target on climate or it's getting to a a nutritional benefit. It doesn't bother me as long as it has both outcomes. So for me, it's about "AND" it's not about one or the other. It's about doing both people and planet people and planet. And There's no point getting a climate right and then killing everyone or everyone being sick. The same thing. It's not about looking after people and getting everyone right and the environment not sustaining. So we have to bring these two together. In our final few minutes, then we should just round off before we summarize impacts of climate. We talked about the impacts of diet on driving climate change. What are the threats climate change poses to food production? There are, you and I both know, this is a complicated web that can impact them, but would you want to give us a few hits on why a heating planet is bad for food production? So when we look at. What we grow and how we grow. It's all about predictability. Farming is all about predictability. And so it's about knowing that you're going to plant and then you're going to get a rain and you're going to get the right temperatures and then your plants will grow. Instantly instability and that is a major threat. Because what happens is it has a major impact on the predictability of food and how you do it. We have over 500 million smallholder farmers across the world. The big farmers can deal with some of these shocks through insurances and other programs and really just size and scale, but it still impacts them. The 500 million smallholder farmers across the world, they're the backbone of rural. Communities and they grow a third of all world's food. They face chronic poverty, food insecurity. Majority of them are female farmers and they have gender inequality issues. They have a activity gap between female and male farmers. So all of this makes it even harder in a changing climate to be effective. So how do we help them to be more productive in the right way? Not necessarily in the right way to build the resilience to be able to respond to climactic shocks. That means diversifying what they're doing. It means looking at improved seeds and improved focus. So we do a lot of work with the scientists working on adapting varieties of crops from one part of the world to another to try and get lower water usage, quicker turnaround. So I was talking to a scientist yesterday is working on a bean variety that can from planting to harvest is less than 60 days. Now, what? Why? That makes sense is that you can plant it and then grow, get return on it pretty quickly. It also means if it fails, you can plant again and still potentially recover and you're hungry period goes smaller. So these kinds of things I think are really critical. I think we also just have to think about urbanization at the moment as well. And rural communities, because of climate, there's huge urbanization going on, which is reducing the number of people working rural communities. We're also seeing major population shifts in terms of age and demographics around the world. You know, if we look at by 2050, Africa is going to have added 800 million people to the workforce while in Europe, we're going to, there's going to be a decline by 156 million. So Europe's aging while Africa's youth population booms, and you're going to see climate impacts then impact that in rural economies and other things. So, as this all starts to happen, there's going to be this changing paradigm and narrative between wealthy versus poor and the need to see how do we converge interest and find compatible visions. and so, Dan, I mean, we haven't got time to go in at length, but you probably have these all mapped as well, but, you know, climate really does hit food for a number of reasons. We get sea level rise, we get salt ingress into low lying levels, we get desiccation of soil, every time you plough it, you lose 1 percent of it as a result, you get changes in crop disease and in pests, you get changes in the animal disease and animal welfare, water supply, extreme weather events, you get changes in the power generation. If you lose hydroelectric, for instance, or you can't use nuclear power stations because the water's too hot, you lose the canal height for shipping, as we saw in the Rhine, and we've seen with the Panama Canal, and these shocks that Paul's talking about are really significant. The 2010 Heatwave that devastated the wheat crop in Kazakhstan pushed up wheat prices globally from a hundred and fifty to three hundred and fifty dollars a metric ton. And as Paul's saying, we could cope with that in Western world because the supermarkets absorbed the hit. Where you couldn't, the prices went up and that's widely attributed to have triggered the Arab Spring. It also forced mass migration into the cities in Syria, which destabilized Syria, which triggered the war in Syria, which led to the mass migration into Europe. All of these sorts of things, which possibly led to Brexit. These things are very interlinked and they all come back food. So I'm going to round up a bit and then ask Paul for final comments. So what I think we've learned today is that food production is a major contributor to greenhouse gas emissions over a third. It contributes to three quarters of tropical and subtropical deforestation. But if we move to local seasonal plant based diets, plant based, not entirely, doesn't have to be diets, and the mixture of foods that Paul's spoken about, we can make a really big difference. We can address food waste and reduce that. That's a third of CO2 emissions just by getting rid of waste. we can do this for the benefit of patients. So in other words, everyone wins. Healthier, happier, longer lives. A sustainable planet just by following the likes of Paul, The Chef's Manifesto and others. So Paul, over to you then. We always like to leave people with the thing. Give me the recipe, okay? I'm not strictly the recipe, but tell me the actions that Dan and I and those listening should take today, tomorrow. What are we doing with our families when we're filling our shopping baskets? What should we be doing tomorrow? So I would, I think when you were talking about what that summary is, I think it's about deliciousness as well. It doesn't have to bad. And so as we're thinking about actions that we can take, it's thinking about how can you do simple swaps, not necessarily in the types of food that you're eating, but in the way that you're shopping. So how, what are the ingredients that you're using in common things? What are the products which have better nutrient density, more diversity, try something different, think about how you can bring those ingredients together. And that can be done in a range of ways. recipes that you get, you learn to cook together as a family. But I do think making some simple swaps so swapping certain things like wheat and rice and some of these kinds of commodity crops with millets or sorghums or other kinds of grains that are out there, whole grains, which have often a better nutrient density. And then I think, it's really diversifying. the way you're shopping and how, and so that's always dependent on where you live and what's available to you. But looking at, where the farmers are bringing in, the food from what are the practices that they have and how can you really drive that forward the number one thing, though I would say is really diversification. And so it's eating more foods, which are better for the planet and better for you. Great. So, for those of us who live in cities, I guess that's when I go to the supermarket tomorrow, it's, I'll be looking to not buy red meat if I can. Every now and again, maybe, but not commonly. If I really do need to buy some meat tomorrow, I'll try and make a chicken or pork. Otherwise I'm gonna try and make it local. If I can certainly seasonal and ideally a vegetable based diet and I'm going to mix it up I'm going to get my peas beans lentils broccoli, whatever else it might be and just because everyone I know always ask the question Which is the best milk substitute of the milk substitute? And in terms of carbon and water It's oat milk, I'm a milk fan as well. I'm a fan and I would definitely agree. I think, you know, the best way to make your own, but it's a challenging task. Not for everyone. But make your own is a good option. And I also think it's eating less. Of those milk substitutes. You know, it's thinking about how do you eat, drink less or less? I think the number one thing that people can eat more of is beans, peas and lentils. And when I talk to nutritionists and I talked to farmers that, you know, beans, peas and lentils are absolutely brilliant in the UK. It's probably is the number one in that family. And so more peas is good. Avocado, all those kinds of things with peas is really good for you. But it gives you a lot of fiber, which is really critical for your diet. They also put nitrogen back into the soil. And so growing more is part of any kind of regenerative farming. brilliant. I totally agree. Paul, I had a one last question for you as well. So, so we've spoken a lot about the diets. I think, well, first of all, I hear often people say, you know, when we spoke about beef earlier and then you'll always get someone who says, Oh, what about avocados? You shouldn't be having avocados all the time. I suppose what do you Well, I guess in Australia, it's all right. Okay. I mean, it's just Yeah, well, see, this is where it depends. I was in Tanzania and somebody was from that lives in the UK was on stage and they were going, you shouldn't need avocados. And I said, I pulled them aside. I said, you know, avocados often a rotting on the ground here, like up to the people's knees because they're grown here and there's no problem with eating avocados. And she went. Oh, and I said, just be careful when you use one rule everywhere in the world. And so I would say, you know, when you look at avocados our country, Australia has had some challenges with putting them on the world map and really putting everyone's host is the number one food. Everyone should be eating in many parts of the world. I would say avocados are not what you should be eating because of the transport costs, the water and what's going on. And the UK is probably one of those places. What I would say is look out for restaurants, which are doing pea based peas on toast. It is absolutely delicious. It sounds not like what you want for breakfast. But absolutely. Some are mixing a little bit of AVO with it to kind of help you transition. But I would say peas on toast, mushy peas, and it done the right way. It actually is better for you. And I think is brilliant. So, and you're supporting local UK farmers on the whole. There's crazy things around food and this information sometimes confuses and trips people up. So the one thing is ask those questions, talk to a local chef, talk to a local farmer and really find out that information, I guess like Paul said one other thing so Hold on a second Hugh there's one other question. Apart I love it. Mushy please forward. Obviously I want to talk about young people for one second because we've said like what can be having your diet That kind of thing Obviously the most important thing apart from that people can do is listen to the Future Fork podcast and this podcast But also if you're a young person What kind of things should you be thinking? What are the roles that might be available to you as you kind of get a bit older? And how do you get involved in this world or become an advocate? That kind of thing. So it's not just what's on your plate, but how can they, I don't know, make a real impact? Yeah, look, I mean, getting involved in food and the many parts of food people think food is just cooking or growing. There is so many things in value addition in food businesses, creating snacks, food entrepreneurs. I would say it's really important to study the food system. The food system is something so critical to who we are, but food culture is also critical to who we are. It's part of each of our identity. Where we've grown up, where we're going, what we enjoy, how we celebrate together. And so food is something intimately personal. And so I would say, learn about that. Think about where those careers could open up. They could be anywhere from the health side, right through the agriculture side. They can be thinking through from the advocacy world , right through the product development world and everything in between. But in the increasingly changing climate, there's a lot of science going on around how do we adapt? How do we mitigate in this changing world to grow enough food to feed the population of the world without increasing its impacts. So we know how to do it by increasing impacts and accelerating climate change. We can't do that. We've got to grow more food way more efficiently using less resources. So it's the ultimate challenge. I would say it's the ultimate opportunity. And so I would say, if you're a young person, have a think about how your skill sets could be brought to bear to helping be part of the solution to solve and come up with a recipe and some of the ingredients that feed into really delivering a food system, which is good for people and planet. Okay. I'm going to wrap up my little bit there. So, I was going to mention, you were saying get informed. I've mentioned Eat and Run, which I think is a really good book. And the other one for Good for Information, that's also great fun, is Mike Berners Lee's How Bad Are Bananas? and I won't give the spoiler away. But he's talking about whether an apple in England in winter is better than a banana. It's a really great source of information helps guide or has helped change my behaviors too. So I'll, Dan, I'll hand back to you. from what I've learned, I'm going to be making an even bigger effort. I'm oat milk anyway, but I'm going to eat even less red meat and i'm going to go ever more local seasonal plant based and i'm going to go and try more peas beans and lentils And i'm going to try mushy peas on toast. That's my takeaway Dan Well, yes, my takeaway. Peas on toast as well. Yeah, for me, just listening to this, I'll listen to it again and go through your stuff, Paul. You know, the numbers are just mind blowing and just the impact you just don't even give two thoughts about. You know, it's just yeah, it's really opened my eyes and I'm really grateful for you coming on and talking to us. Paul if people want to find out a bit more about you and what you do, how can they do that? so if you want to find out a bit more about the work we do if you go to the SDG2 advocacy hub, we have a number of campaigns, including the Chef's manifesto As you've mentioned, the Future Fork podcasts on all platforms is another great way to Follow along and hear from people that are working in all different elements of the food system and how they're seeing the impacts of climate change and the actions that can be taken. And then obviously on, Instagram X and all the other platforms, we're very active. So, take a look and see the last point I just want to say is that food is 1 way and agriculture is 1 way to also 1 of the key ways for us to actually capture carbon into the soil and to actually reverse some of the impacts. And so this is a real, it's not only about reduction, it's also about reversing. And so I think by the right practices, we can recapture carbon back into the soil and we can build up the and return it to the foundation that we need for healthy planet. Fantastic. Well, Paul, thank you so much for your time. and you too, sir I'll see you next Thanks also paul. care, Bye a lot. Thank you.